No.58 Interview with Dr. Makoto Gonokami
Hitachi is dedicated to building a sustainable society where well-being is preserved, and the global environment is protected by operating within planetary boundaries. This commitment is realized through its “Social Innovation Business,” which seeks to address societal challenges by integrating IT, OT, and products. With the growing complexity of societal issues—particularly environmental challenges—there is an increasing need for a multifaceted approach. This includes not only leveraging cutting-edge technologies like AI and quantum computing but also advancing policy proposals and nurturing human resources to address these issues. For this discussion, we welcomed Dr. Makoto Gonokami, President of RIKEN (Japan's largest comprehensive research institution known for its research excellence across diverse scientific fields), and former President of the University of Tokyo, to share his insights on policies to enhance Japan’s industrial competitiveness in science and technology and the respective roles of industry, academia, and government. (Interviewer: Norihiro Suzuki, Chairman of Hitachi Research Institute)
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Makoto Gonokami
President, RIKEN
Makoto Gonokami graduated from the Department of Physics, Faculty of Science, University of Tokyo in 1980 and received his Ph.D. from the Department of Physics, Graduate School of Science in 1985. Then, after serving as Lecturer in the Faculty of Engineering, Professor in the Graduate School of Engineering, Head of the Department of Applied Physics, School of Engineering, Director of Quantum-Phase Electronics Center, School of Engineering, and Professor in the Photon Science Center, he assumed the office of Professor, Graduate School of Science in 2010. He became Vice President in 2012 and Dean, Graduate School of Science in 2014, and served as the 30th President of the University of Tokyo from 2015. He was appointed President of RIKEN in 2022, his present office. His specialty is quantum optical physics. His works include The University of Tokyo as a New Management Entity (University of Tokyo Press), Map of the Future University (Chikumashobo Ltd.), and University, A Driver of Social Change (University of Tokyo Press).
SuzukiDr. Gonokami, you contributed to the H-UTokyo Lab.*1 in many ways during your time as president of the University of Tokyo (UTokyo). Could you share your thoughts on the H-UTokyo Lab.?
GonokamiJust before assuming the role of president of UTokyo, I had many opportunities to talk with Mr. Nakanishi*2, who was Chairman of Hitachi at that time. We explored the relationship between industry and academia and discussed the creation of a platform that would enable us to share our visions on the roles each sector can play in an era of rapid change. Mr. Nakanishi strongly supported the concept of co-creation between industry and academia, which led to the birth of the H-UTokyo Lab. At H-UTokyo Lab., we were able to start by discussing the vision, which was very good for UTokyo.
SuzukiAfter serving as president of UTokyo, you became president of RIKEN, your current office. Is there a difference in management style between a university and a National Research and Development Agency?
GonokamiI joined the Faculty of Science of UTokyo and also researched science in the Graduate School of Science. After that, I was in the Faculty of Engineering for over 20 years, then returned to the Faculty of Science before being appointed president of UTokyo. I was therefore a member of the UTokyo staff for about 40 years, during the time I experienced pure science in the Faculty of Science and practical science in the Faculty of Engineering, which had quite different cultures. I have had close relationships with fellow researchers at RIKEN from that time, but I have not worked there. Since becoming president of RIKEN, however, I have noticed various differences.
One of them is the policies for running an organization. UTokyo will celebrate its 150th anniversary in 2027. It has been a leader in advanced academic research in Asia for a long time, so it must consider what kind of activities it should pursue as a leader. On the other hand, while limited in research fields, RIKEN is made up of a wide variety of top scientists with exceptionally high research abilities all sharing the same desire of “I want to research.” How to harness that passion to raise the level of research even higher is what I address as president of RIKEN.
Another difference is financial resources. At UTokyo, financial resources come from the government’s management expense grants, and self-generated income, such as tuition fees and medical fees from affiliated hospitals, so they are quite diverse. It is also the responsibility of a university to generate financial resources by reaching out to a wider range of stakeholders. On the other hand, RIKEN is a national research institute, so it must operate from the standpoint as a government agency in which financial resources consist mainly of management expense grants and subsidies from the government. However, that does not mean having to take a passive stance. Proposals must be made in a proactive manner since it is scientists who possess the specialized knowledge related to content requested by the government. In other words, instead of simply doing what we are told to do, we must inspire the country in some way. Although both RIKEN and universities are public institutions, and while they share a common commitment to actively engage with society, their management approaches are quite different.
SuzukiBoth seem to be difficult positions. At Hitachi, we want to promote innovation by leveraging our collaboration with external parties such as H-UTokyo Lab., RIKEN, and the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) and overseas organizations as well. We also plan to collaborate with start-ups making use of corporate venture capital (CVC), and to concentrate on research and development of technologies to promote social innovation. Going forward, I recognize the importance of collaborating with others while developing a good understanding of the unique features of universities, research institutions, and start-ups.
SuzukiSoon after becoming president of RIKEN, you announced RIKEN’s Vision on the 2030 Horizon*3. Could you share the backgrounds to create this vision?
GonokamiThe vision serves as RIKEN’s guiding principle, emphasizing that RIKEN is “a place where the research scientists aspire to pursue aligns with the creation of knowledge vital to humanity’s future, fostering trust and strengthening the bond between science and society.” We gave concrete form to this vision through the concept of Transformative Research Innovation Platform of RIKEN platforms (TRIP)*4 that drive social change and future social creation from academia as platforms that connect industry, academia, and government.
This is based on problem awareness while I was president of UTokyo. Just at the time when H-UTokyo Labs. was established, there was monetary easing through Abenomics and economic measures to realize investment in the future, but there was not enough investment for academia and research and development. As society was clearly changing from products to services, and becoming more global in nature, I thought that academia itself must contribute to society with goods that are worth investing in as a place that creates knowledge. Also, in RIKEN, I realized that we could build a complementary relationship with “academia” that was being forced into a difficult financial situation. It was said that if the roles of national research institutes like RIKEN and universities were not clearly identified and separated, budget requests would be difficult to make. However, by linking them, I thought that funds that were not being effectively used could be invested in academia, thereby creating a virtuous cycle between academia and government.
Figure 1: The TRIP concept
Figure 2: "Science that Connects" using TRIP contributes to a better future
TRIP-AGIS will introduce the technology of generative AI and will develop foundation models for scientific research to further accelerate the research cycle, as well as strengthen activities to lead advanced science to social impact.
Source: Advanced General Intelligence for Science Program (RIKEN, viewed January 30, 2025)
SuzukiPlease share your thoughts on the present state of science and technology research, and the research fields and social issues that Japan should address.
GonokamiTechnological innovation around the world is progressing at extraordinary pace, as exemplified by the appearance of generative AI and the practical use of extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography*5, Japan, as well, is boldly moving in a new direction in the area of advanced semiconductors by attracting a Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited (TSMC) plant to Kumamoto, investing in Rapidus Corporation, etc. The same holds true in the area of quantum computing. When I became president of UTokyo in 2015, from the viewpoint of a physicist, I assumed that the practical implementation of such computers was still 10 to 20 years away. Today, however, we are already entering an era of developing algorithms through hybrid computing using supercomputers and quantum computers.
In light of this technological innovation, Japan’s winning strategy will hinge on two key concepts: Society 5.0 and the real-time use of big data. For example, the supercomputer Fugaku*6 can simulate flood damage expected to occur 30 minutes later in just 5 minutes. When simulating the floods caused by the heavy rains in July 2018 using the K computer*7 in 2019, the batch processing took about 10 hours. If simulation results could have been obtained in 5 minutes, many lives could have been saved, and it shows just how worthwhile fast simulation can be. Furthermore, AI algorithms, supercomputers, and communication technologies are needed to effectively use big data in real time. Combining all of the above should become the business model of Society 5.0.
In addition, Japan should lead the world in tackling the environmental issue. This is a problem that cannot be solved as long as humans feel that “the earth is an extremely big, rock-solid thing, so everything is okay no matter what we do.” We must choose what action to take now while feeling the pain of others and the pain of the entire earth. If we can use digital technologies to quickly understand what events are occurring on the other side of the planet, perhaps we can save earth from the tragedy of the commons*8. I feel that it would be of great value if we could connect systems sciences needed for protecting the earth as “global commons” with the basic sciences possessed by RIKEN. Such an approach could also be a new growth opportunity for private companies, so I think that it may become an appropriate theme as a target of their investment.
SuzukiLooking ahead 10 years, to increase the presence of Japan in the environmental field, we need to address the global issue of carbon neutrality simultaneously with the development of a nature-positive circular economy. To this end, digital technology, including real-time control using big data will be indispensable, but a mindset to recognize social problems as a personal matter will also be important. One’s own research should be useful for both business and society. With this kind of sensibility, I believe that corporate goals should be able to make a social contribution.
GonokamiEnvironmental problems cannot be solved unless we use the brainpower of top scientists to the fullest. This is an appealing theme in that one’s own research overlaps and resonates with the creation of academic knowledge that will be necessary for the future. The driving force of research is curiosity and the joy of discovery, so any method that hinders a researcher’s desire to “do what you want to do” will not work well. It’s not just a one-way relationship in which science is useful for achieving sustainability. Rather, it is a two-way relationship that includes the generation of new ideas through an awareness of the problem of sustainability. I would like to create a mechanism for producing such a relationship.
SuzukiI believe that improving Japan’s basic research ability is important in strengthening its industrial competitiveness, but if we look at the number of researchers holding doctorates, theses, etc., they continue to grow in the United States and China, while in Japan, they remain at the same level in many years. I would like to hear your opinions on what is needed to improve Japan’s basic research ability and the path that should be taken to raise Japan’s industrial competitiveness.
GonokamiBasic research capabilities are critically important, but looking ahead to the next ten years, I believe that strengthening them through investment will not be an easy task. Investments made by companies considering their shareholders and maintaining healthy quarterly profits are not often directed toward basic research fields. This is why it’s challenging to persuade companies with the simple argument that “basic research is important.” Instead, we must clearly specify the types of research that require focus. For example, everyone carries around a smartphone today and lives in an environment where cyberspace and physical space merge. This is because the computable capability, which indicates the limits of computing, has expanded. In addition, advances in semiconductor chips and the combination of machine learning and inference computation have made it possible to perform large-scale computations at much higher levels than before. As the boundaries of computable capabilities continue to expand, it is vital for Japan to address the challenges on the path to achieving Society 5.0 and to strengthen basic research to support this goal.
SuzukiTo expand the computable capabilities and to enable Japan to continue to lead in technical areas, reducing energy consumption in computing and using clean energy are certainly key issues.
GonokamiThat’s right. To reduce power consumption, we need more advanced chips for inference computation. At present, UTokyo, RIKEN, and other institutions are collaborating to address this issue, but it will be difficult to keep a top position by a single-lane method that develops a flagship supercomputer in 10-year spans as at present. I would say that it might be better to develop two supercomputers in 5-year spans so that we can deploy the most advanced technologies in a timely manner.
From here on, the extension of computational methods by AI and dramatic changes in research methods will also help accelerate basic research. In addition, research on clarifying the principles of AI will also be important. Here, the former is called “AI for science” while the latter is “science for AI.” At RIKEN, there are many researchers studying the principles of AI in addition to working on the social implementation of AI, so we would like to conduct AI research in both directions.
SuzukiPromoting AI research in both directions is expected to lead to more advanced AI use cases.
GonokamiThe research of physical intelligence that merges AI and machines in an advanced manner, and makes AI perform physical actions is also being promoted. With more advanced edge processing due to the evolution of the Application Specific Integrated Circuit (ASIC)*9, a type of circuit that can perform complex computational processing for specific applications, it should be possible to achieve forms of the automation which is currently not possible. That is, it may become possible to perform difficult tasks in real time while industrial robots or experimental robots themselves are using generative AI. At a semiconductor production site, for example, the full automation of post-processing will represent an industrial paradigm-shift. Whether such a use case can be achieved is still unknown, I believe that this will be a field that should make overwhelming progress over the next ten years, so RIKEN will promote the research of physical intelligence.
SuzukiI believe that it is important to have good quality data for physical intelligence. For AI use cases, it will be necessary to pursue automation and productivity improvements in an environment where data, algorithms, and computational resources are ready. If these developments can be applied to Japanese monozukuri (way of making things), such as the materials field, and pharmaceutical sites, Japan’s strengths can be demonstrated.
SuzukiI understand that RIKEN is strengthening RIKEN Ventures*10 certification and support for start-ups, and then I would like to ask your thoughts on ways of fostering innovation and creating growth models toward the strengthening of Japan’s industrial competitiveness.
GonokamiActually, the establishment of RIKEN was deeply involved with industry. It was established in 1917 in the middle of the First World War. At that time, a lot of problems had arisen such as supply chain interruptions and drop in international competitiveness, and the policy of increasing national wealth and military power by relying on heavy industry and raw silk had reached a deadlock. It was therefore necessary to broaden the range of industries. As a result, the establishment of research laboratories focusing on physics and chemistry was discussed, and with the support of Eiichi Shibusawa, RIKEN was established.
Turning to the present, we can see conditions similar to those at the time of RIKEN’s establishment, such as major paradigm shifts including a switch to a knowledge-intensive society, geopolitical conflicts, and supply chain interruptions due to natural disasters. I believe that the role of RIKEN today is to support and drive a transformation of the industrial structure. This will require knowledge that leads to more advanced basic science, which in turn will help Japan gain a competitive advantage in industry.
Additionally, when starting out to transform the industrial structure, I think it’s important to support start-ups that can give rise to new technologies and services. There are many start-ups originating in RIKEN, UTokyo, and other institutions, but most of them are software related. Although UTokyo is strong in the area of hardware such as materials science and machinery, there are not many venture companies in such areas, and there is a mismatch of competitive areas between academic theses and start-ups. For these reasons, I would like to provide RIKEN’s advanced technologies and facilities to start-ups and tech companies.
SuzukiNext, I would like to ask about talent development. Talent development is important for strengthening global competitiveness through innovation. Please share your thoughts on global talents, the nurturing of young researchers, and the promotion of diversity at RIKEN.
GonokamiOur global talent goals include attracting international researchers, including Japanese nationals living abroad, and increasing the proportion of female researchers. Diversity is also important. Dr. Tsung-Dao Lee, a recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physics, endeavored to nurture young researchers as the first director of the RIKEN Brookhaven National Laboratory (BNL) Research Center. Those efforts produced many outstanding nuclear physicists. Currently, foreign researchers make up just over 20% of RIKEN’s total researchers. We aim to further increase this percentage and strengthen our ties with world-class talent from abroad.
In terms of developing young talent, we launched the RIKEN Early Career Leaders Program in FY2023. This is a new program that expands upon the RIKEN Hakubi Fellows Program that has been providing young researchers with exceptional abilities an opportunity to independently promote research as a Research Team Leader. The new program provides such young researchers with the opportunity to independently promote research as a Principal Investigator (PI). In 2024, we enhanced the recruitment of women as part of our diversity efforts, and in this regard, it is, of course, important to create a comfortable work environment for women as well as to proactively search for talented female researchers from our side instead of just waiting for applications from candidates.
SuzukiFinally, please share your expectations for the Hitachi Group and Hitachi Research Institute.
GonokamiHitachi is truly a leader. When Mr. Kawamura*11 was Chairman of Hitachi, I heard from him directly that “the ratio of overseas sales exceeded 50%,” and today, it appears to exceed 60%. Additionally, on looking at market capitalization, I believe that Hitachi is evaluated well by the market but some Japanese companies, especially monozukuri companies are undervalued. There is a big difference compared with GAFA (Google, Amazon, Facebook (Meta), and Apple) and Chinese tech companies. The nature of knowledge-intensive businesses is to grow with market expectations, so I would like to create something like that together. RIKEN is curiosity-driven in basic research—it is an organization whose driving force is the joy of discovery. Yet, the vision of business and the vision of researchers are always in a reciprocal relationship, so I hope that these visions can aim together in a good direction. I believe that top scientists can read big trends in science, and that with this in mind, I would like companies to recognize and anticipate those trends and to make good use of them for corporate management. Conversely, it is difficult for RIKEN to keep in step with technologies at the industrial level. Coordination between industry and academia is important—like H-UTokyo Lab., they need to share their vision, examine the issues that need to be addressed, and collaborate not only to accelerate research and development but also for commercialization. Otherwise, it won’t be possible to systematically find a winning path while in a situation where the future cannot be read with a linear model.
SuzukiI agree. It is important that we build a vision of Japan as an innovation-based country and design a roadmap of necessary emerging technologies (advanced technologies that are expected to be implemented in the future) with an eye on a winning path toward the vision. This roadmap must include not just technologies but also analysis from the viewpoint of economy and society, which is something that Hitachi Research Institute should contribute as a think tank.
GonokamiIt’s not easy to design a roadmap toward the vision along with the means of achieving it, but I would like Hitachi Research Institute to take up that challenge.
SuzukiI would like to attempt such a roadmap while deepening our collaboration with researchers involved in basic research. Thank you for today’s wonderful discussion.
This interview highlighted the critical importance of strengthening collaboration among industry, academia, government, and start-ups to identify key challenges and drive innovation amidst increasingly complex societal issues and rapid changes in industrial structures. The amazing progress in generative AI, semiconductor technologies, and other fields are greatly expanding the computable area toward solutions of social issues. We can expect to see prediction and control of the future by integrating advanced knowledge from basic science with the intelligence of various fields within a Cyber-Physical System (CPS) that merges physical space and cyberspace. I would like to take up the challenge of achieving Society 5.0 by formulating a vision of the future society and a roadmap to get there based on the above initiatives.
Norihiro Suzuki, Chairman, Hitachi Research Institute
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